Leading L&D: Creating the Environment for Growth with Jay Letourneau of the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority – AXIOM Insights Podcast

Scott Rutherford
Hello and welcome to the AXIOM Insights Learning & Development Podcast. I’m Scott Rutherford. This podcast series is about the people, processes, content and techniques that drive organizational performance through learning. This is the third episode in a special three part series, that we’re focusing on leadership in learning and development. And today we’re speaking with Jay Letourneau, the Senior Director of Learning and Organizational Development at the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority, also known as the MBTA. Or in the Boston area, just the T. If you’re listening to this as it comes out, in June 2023, the themes Jay touches on in this podcast conversation will also be the topic of a special workshop that he’s leading at the Training Industry Conference & Expo (or TICE) in Raleigh later this month. If you’d like to learn more about how to join us and Jay for this workshop at TICE, you can contact me through the AXIOM website, axiomlearningsolutions.com.

Jay Letourneau
I’m Jay Letourneau. I am currently the Senior Director of Learning and Organizational Development at the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority or the MBTA. I’ve been in learning and development for just about 22 years or so. Unlike most other careers, I don’t think L&D is kind of like the thing where you’re like, hey, when I grow up, I want to be a corporate trainer. Most people kind of fall into it. And I was I was one of them. I like to jokingly say that I went to school and got two useless degrees. I have a degree in philosophy and a degree in anthropology. My goal was always to be a research anthropologist, like Indiana Jones, and also probably teach at the college level. Then life kind of happened. I got married young, never went back and got my masters. Needed a job. My father was a foreman in construction. And he said, Hey, it’s a paycheck. So about six months into my work in construction, the gentleman who was the facilitator on site was in a horrific motorcycle accident. Spoiler alert, he survived.

Scott Rutherford
Good news. Better not to leave that lingering in the story.

Jay Letourneau
Exactly, exactly. But he did break a lot of bones. So he was out of commission for a while. And I’m not sure about the regulations now. But back in the early 2000s, on a construction site, you needed to have a certified OSHA facilitator on site. So my dad was kind of panicking, because this happened over the weekend. And then Monday happened, and he was like, What am I going to do? And I, you know, I raised my hand, I said, Hey, I can do this, I, you know, I went to school, I thought I wanted to be a teacher. So this is the next best thing.

And then the bug hit me. I started teaching these OSHA classes, and really getting up there and facilitating content to these construction workers. And it was a challenge, because these are guys who don’t want to be there for training. So I had to kind of use all of my skills. You know, I had to open up that bag of tricks and really, you know, use humor and really talk about the wisdom and why we’re here talking about these different topics. And I always say if I could teach [about] sexual harassment to a bunch of construction workers, I can facilitate anything.

So that was the bug that bit me. And then I just kind of started looking for things that were more specific on the training route, you know, so my first job outside of construction, I started as a facilitator at a small franchisee for fast food. And the material I was getting from the fast food company was not great. So I started fiddling with it. Back then, of course, I didn’t know it was instructional design, but then that was my foray into instructional design. Then I went and got certified in instructional design, started doing things like change management and DEI and really starting to expand my portfolio.

And the more tools I had in my tool belt, the more I realized, Hey, I’m becoming a subject matter expert in Learning and Development. And that really opened up my horizons.

I went to a healthcare organization where I had headed up the learning and development department – really built out a department from scratch. And then, over the last few years, I’ve really taken that expertise in taking what I know about adult learning theory, what I know about organizations and what I know about how to set an organization up for success. And that’s been kind of my key to a long lasting career in L&D.

Scott Rutherford
What’s interesting is, is I didn’t know this before we started talking just now about your initial interest in sort of research anthropology. But I’m seeing that there might be kind of a closed circle here in in that a lot of what I think happens in L&D is, you have to start with understanding the system and the problem, and the issue and the context. And so is it. Are you finding a little bit of that connection in your mindset to where you thought you were starting from?

Jay Letourneau
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I know I said earlier, I jokingly say, I have two useless degrees. But I think both philosophy and anthropology have set me up for the mindset of how to get into the place where people are passionate about things. Anthropology, you know, is the study of human culture. And one of the most difficult things about L&D is building that culture, building the culture of learning and getting people to really want to participate. It’s the push-pull mentality. You know, we don’t want folks to always be told that they have to learn this or always be told that this is something that they have to do. When you really build that community, that culture, that understanding that learning is going to help you to thrive in your role, and really help you build a career, then that’s the sweet spot. That’s where we get people who want to go to the learning, they want to dive deeper into topics that excite them, like delegation, or diversity and inclusion, or even being a mentor to folks who are coming into the organization, how can they support them. And that really is a lot around the feeling of anthropology and how cultures are created. And thrive because of leadership and the values that we hold. So it does, it is kind of funny that, you know, I went to school for something totally different than I’m actually using the things that I’ve learned.

Scott Rutherford
So I’m hoping you can take us through your experience both in – looking at it as a culture, we often talk about building a learning culture. Talk us through your experience of walking into an organization. And doing that diagnostic, taking stock of the learning culture and the learning organization that you begin with. And not to not to inject Donald Rumsfeld here, but you begin with the organization you have, not the organization you may want.

Jay Letourneau
Absolutely.

Scott Rutherford
Those of us of a certain age, probably get the reference. But so you start with what you have. And how have you approached that that sort of diagnostic and build cycle where, you know, I mean, you know, starting from starting from day one walked in the door.

Jay Letourneau
So that’s, you know, that’s a good question. It’s something that I’ve been challenged with here at the MBTA. When I started here, about five months ago, it was a new department, new role. Learning and Development as a whole was more of a individual departmental function. So operations had their own trainers, HR had trainers, there wasn’t this centralized thought process around training.

So as part of my gap analysis, needs analysis, what the organization needed. I had to take a boots on the ground approach and start talking to individuals, and I started with leadership.

I think leadership is a good indication of what a culture should be. So talking to leadership, the one thing that I found universally from everyone that I spoke to from an executive level down to mid manager, and those managers of individual contributors were that they were passionate about development, about developing themselves, about developing their teams. They just didn’t know how to get there.

Then when I talked to the folks who were those frontline employees, our bus drivers, our train operators, our fare takers. Any time we talked about development, about training, it was kind of a double edged sword, right? They’re like, well, we are in training all the time. And it’s all these different things that we have to do. But I’d be excited to learn about what other parts of parts of the organization are doing, what other roles are like? And are there opportunities for me to advance my career.

And that was a lightbulb moment for me. So you’ve got the leadership up here in corporate saying, yes, you know, we want this culture of learning, and we want it to be top down, and we feel passionate about this. And then as it trickles down to those frontline folks, you know, what they’re talking about is being inundated with compliance trainings and specific role trainings and different things that they had to do. What they’re really looking for is that opportunity for growth and personal development.

And that, for me, was really an eye opener on, like you said, what’s the culture we have? And how can I build it out to a culture that we want it to be? So one of the things that I find very interesting is that no matter what level in the organization you were at, they were passionate. And I can, I can work with that. I can work with passion, because passion can build a culture.

And then what is next for me and my team is to take the gap between what leadership believes and thinks a learning culture should look like, and what those frontline operators want, and what a culture should look like for them. And that’s kind of the sweet spot that my team and I are working on right now is giving, you know, giving them the balance between the trainings they have to take, and the trainings that they want to take.

Scott Rutherford
It’s a balance in a connection, right, it sounds like what you’re doing, though, is also in by listening to the while listening to the folks who you’re trying to connect with, you know, they’re telling you what they’re excited about and what they’re passionate about. And if you’re able to couple that and help them understand the relation between – well, everyone, everyone has to do the required training. But if you do the required training, plus the development training, there’s a path forward. And if maybe is what I’m saying directionally correct is, but are you connecting the dots to help them, you know, sort of accept what has to be, so they so they’re excited about what could be?

Jay Letourneau
Yeah, absolutely. And, and it boils down to that WIFM again, Scott, right. It’s, it’s what is in it for me. So explaining the whys behind the compliance training, or the role based training and explaining how that can set them up for success for that career based training.

The great thing about the MBTA is we have such a wide variety of folks here, right? We have, we have bus drivers who have been driving the same route for 25 years. And they’re happy with that. They want to do that. They’re pleased with their role. You know, they’re, they’re part of the overall Boston community. And they’re excited to be part of the community and see the riders every single day and, and, you know, talk to the folks.

But they even say to me, you know, there’s things I think I could learn. I think there’s things I could learn about customer service. There’s things I think I could learn about de-escalation of an issue. There’s things that I think I could learn about health and safety as far as CPR and different pieces like that. So really listening to the needs of those individual contributors, I think is what drives the passion because if we can give them smatterings of compliance and smatterings of things that they want to do. And then open up an entire offering or library per se, of things that they can look in into or register or sign up for themselves, then I think we’re in the place where we can start to really talk about a true learning culture.

Scott Rutherford
So you mentioned when you started with the MBTA, a few months ago, five months ago, that training resources were largely decentralized, to put it that way. How have you gotten your arms around that? And where are you taking it?

Jay Letourneau
(Laughs) The arms are still trying to get around that.

Scott Rutherford
That’s fair.

Jay Letourneau
So the nice piece is that there is an internal initiative within the MBTA to centralize learning. We’re working with a third party vendor who’s coming in and doing a needs and gap analysis for us. They’re interviewing all the different folks who have a role in training throughout the organization.

I’m also doing my own research and analysis, building relationships, working with different departments. A perfect example is that we have a training school. And the training school is exactly what it sounds like. It is a school for all of our frontline folks to come in and learn their craft, whether it’s driving a bus or railway mechanic, or right of way mechanic who goes out and takes care of the rails and the roads and different modes of transportation out there. They go through the training school.

The training school has traditionally been an entity that sat upon itself. Now I am building those relationships and saying to them, Listen, I have a team of instructional designers, I have a team of LMS administrators. Let us help you design, develop and execute a curriculum that’s going to make it easy for the folks in your organizations to learn their craft, to be engaged while they’re there. And work with the instructors who are who are there currently, to get them to be energetic and engaging and exciting when it comes to the training. Just building those bridges and building those connections.

You know, it may end up where the training school reports under LOD at some point, and I do actively “own” the responsibility and the output of that particular department. But if not, I want to build that relationship so that they understand that I’m here for them, that they understand what good looks like, and that I can pass on best practices and ideas to drive learning. Because definitely the training school is one of the pieces where those frontline operators, they have to go through the training school. So it’s a lot of that, that compliance and regulatory things. So let’s make it the most exciting training we can make it and that’s where I think myself and my team can really help.

We’ll see in the coming months as the research and the analysis goes on. I’m not going to make any predictions. But I would definitely like to see more centralized learning and development where all of learning reports up to myself and my team. I think it would be more beneficial for the learners, I think it would be better for the long lasting culture.

And I also think it’s easier for the accountability of training, you know if there’s one centralized source of truth, so to speak. And it just makes it easier for all the folks who are trying to commit to a training culture. I know that there are people out there right now who are working for different parts of the organization who are passionate about training. And maybe they don’t have a formal background in training, maybe they you know, maybe they kind of just fell into it themselves. And this is early on in their journey. I want to be able to help them and support them and help them build out their career and build good learning experiences for their learners as well.

Scott Rutherford
I think what you’re describing is sort of a classic pull between the federated, decentralized and the centralized training model. Because – maybe in some organizations, I don’t know the MBTA’s history and wouldn’t pretend to, but speaking more generally – it’s sort of a cycle in some cases.

So you end up with a really solid, centralized organization, but maybe it becomes a little detached from its stakeholders, and then you’ll have a passionate person in other departments spin up a training operation, rogue, I’m sure we’ve all heard that word. And before too long, you end up with a with a splintered, decentralized training organization that you have to pull back together.

So you know, I think, I think those of us who have been around for a while have seen this have seen the cycle. So I like what you’re saying about, you know, trying to trying to find those efficiencies and build the culture centrally. But with that communication and with that linkage out to the organization, because without that, that’s when you start to become isolated and disconnected.

Jay Letourneau
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it peaks something when you said, I don’t know the history of the MBTA. So, the MBTA, or the T, specifically, the subway in in Boston is the oldest subway system in North America. We started in 1897. So the organization has been around for a long time. And sometimes I jokingly say that we’re still in those olden days of training, I would conservatively say, and I’m not saying this as a negative or a, or even an indictment to folks who came before me. But I’ve conservatively say that we’re like 15 years behind other organizations our size in our industry, on how we approach training. And that, to me, is what kind of gets me up in the morning, and says, How can we drive this forward? How can we how can we push the culture? How can we get folks to really want to have the learning, the development, the personal experience that helps them grow their career.

Because we already see that we have folks who come right out of high school or college, start with the organization and then retire 30 odd years later. So we have the longevity. Let’s give people the experience of developing a career.

One of the great things that I find in this organization is that a lot of folks have started out as frontline workers and work their way to executive level. So I want to build off that part of our culture, right, is that everybody has the opportunity to grow.

The perfect example is a colleague of mine, who is currently acting head of the training school, she started as a bus operator. And she worked her way up to the head of the department. And I think that that is the culture that I want to splinter off of.

When we talk about learning and development, that there are opportunities here, there are advancement opportunities, there are things that you can do with your career from start to finish here at the MBTA. And I’m going to give you the tools to climb up that ladder. That’s where I think is our is our meat and potatoes of building the culture of learning here at the MBTA is building off of the things that are already part of the culture. And I think that’s the tricky part is that most people come into an organization and they want to shove something down your throat, whether it’s you know, change management or diversity and inclusion or learning and development, whatever, you know, their acronym, so to speak might be they want to shove it down your throat rather than looking around and seeing what’s already there. And trying to stick pieces of your expertise into the pieces of the culture that are already there.

Scott Rutherford
So what was it – “Maslow’s hammer,” I think – when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Jay Letourneau
Absolutely.

Scott Rutherford
You don’t want to force fit solutions that don’t fit the problems.

Jay Letourneau
Yeah, exactly. And you know, I appreciate that as a philosophy major as well, the Maslow’s reference.

Scott Rutherford
I can’t guarantee, I might have not any more of those.

Jay Letourneau
Oh, that’s, that’s, that’s great. And you know, most people when they talk about Maslow, they talk about his hierarchy of needs. But the hammer analogy is perfect, right? It’s one of those things where if if you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And if there are things that don’t necessarily look or feel like they always have to you, your first instinct is to fight them.

And that’s the challenge, right? I need to come in as the new guy, and get people to understand that I’m not trying to force anything on them, I’m not trying to give them anything that they don’t want. I’m trying to enhance their culture, you know, and then also going with the Maslow theme, you know, the hierarchy of needs, you know, I want people to understand that I’m coming in, to help them with their psychological needs, help them with their safety and security. Hopefully, I’ll get to the love and belonging piece. But there’s a strong culture here already, that revolves around other things that I think I can tap into very easily.

Scott Rutherford
Well, I think there’s probably a connection, I would least hope there’s a connection between building a modern and engaged learning culture, and how the MBTA is positioning itself as an employer, desirable employer in a home for people to – it sounds to me, if you have folks starting right out of high school or college, and making a 35 year career, the MBTA [career] attraction and longevity may not be a problem. But I think every organization at the same time needs to keep itself competitive in in the, in the talent market, too? I like to think training and support is a big part of that.

Jay Letourneau
It really is, right? Especially for those folks who come to us right out of high school may not have a college education may not have a degree may not have the thought process that they can move further in the organization because they’re like, Oh, well, I didn’t get a degree. There’s nothing stopping them from succeeding in this organization.

Learning and development, helping them get certifications, helping them get understandings and backgrounds and different knowledge bases, helping them to break into different departments that they’re excited and passionate about. And then working from there. I mean, even as far as education wise, we have a very robust reimbursement program for folks who want to go on and continue their education. So that’s one of the pieces to that – learning and development.

I think organizations who are who strictly think of learning and development as training, see it just as that [training], it’s like, well, these are the things that I need to learn to do my job, you really have to push past the training and think more about the learning and development piece. That’s where training and learning and development are different.

Learning and development are, how can I grow myself? How can I develop my path, and one of those things is our reimbursement process for college. Helping folks with certifications, helping people get recertified when they’re certified in in certain aspects of their job, and even building out on things that we bring into the organization like mentorship and leadership development, and change management, and ROI, all these things that people don’t necessarily think of as part of their daily job. But it really helps them to develop themselves and then to move on.

Scott Rutherford
And as a leader of the learning development function, you know, to make all that come together, you know, I think, maybe this is a closing thought, but it really you’re bringing together, you know, parts of that puzzle are going to be owned — well, it’s different that organization by organization — but typically owned by different people in groups. You know, tuition reimbursement, in my experience typically is somewhere over in HR, which may or may not be the same people who are doing L&D. Coaching and leader development may or may not be the same group and so on. So, you know, being able to pull those together and make a make, make a logical whole out of it, a total that you can then put in front of your learner audience and say, ‘here’s your options that makes sense, in one place,’ that can be a challenge.

Jay Letourneau
Yes, it really is. And I think one of the advantages that I have is that my department and my team, we do report up to the chief HR officer. So we are smack dab in the middle of HR. Some organizations, that doesn’t work in ours, it works quite nicely. Because a lot of the pieces that are around organizational development are under me. So performance management is under me. Tuition reimbursement is under me. Personal growth and development, IDPs, things like that, those all fall under me. And the nice part about that is, as you said, Scott, now I can kind of build this portrait of what L&D should look like, by taking these different puzzle pieces of personal development plans, tuition reimbursement, growth opportunities, like certain certifications in change management or leadership development or “manager 101” for folks who are new to the organization or new to management. And all of these different puzzle pieces are building together this tapestry that I’m hoping is going to be the culture of learning and development at the MBTA.

Scott Rutherford
My thanks to Jay Letourneau. I hope you’re able to join Jay and me for his workshop later this month at the TICE conference in Raleigh, North Carolina. You can learn more about the conference at axiomlearningsolutions.com/tice or visiting trainingindustry.com. This podcast is production of AXIOM Learning Solutions. AXIOM is a learning services company that provides learning teams with the people and resources needed to accomplish virtually any learning project or objective. From On Demand Learning professionals will work alongside your team to complete learning content or project outsourcing. If you’d like to discuss how AXIOM can support your learning goals, contact us at axiomlearningsolutions.com. Thanks again for listening to the AXIOM Insights Podcast.